Conflict Management: What Martial Arts Teaches About Staying Calm Under Pressure – Jonathan Han

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Today I’m talking with Jonathan Hahn. Jonathan and I know each other through the tango community in Washington, DC, where I used to live. He currently works as one of many, many federal government employees in the DC area. One of the reasons I asked him to join me on the podcast is that in addition to his tango experience, Jonathan has also trained for several decades in various forms of martial arts.

So I’m looking forward to hearing his perspective on leading and following through multiple lenses today. Jonathan, welcome to the podcast. It’s a pleasure being here and thank you for inviting me. You’re so welcome.

You know, in the time we’ve known each other, you’ve often shared observations from a wide variety of martial arts forms. So I’m wondering if you could just start us off by giving listeners a bit of an overview on all the different techniques that you’ve studied. Well, like most children, I got into karate and judo and then took a pause until college when I got into Aikido and then since then have cross-trained in various Filipino, Kali, Chinese systems, Russian Sistema, and then Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Share a little bit of the differences among some of the different styles that you’ve experienced.

I know there’s kind of a range based on what your goals are, you know, as a student. Well, there are combat sports like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai that has a more competitive angle where there are clear winners and losers. And then there are more cooperative systems like Aikido or Tai Chi, which is focused more on personal development. So these can be broken down into two distinct camps of external martial arts versus internal martial arts.

External being mostly of body mechanics and more aggression and technique-based versus internal, which is more about proprioception, self-regulation, and developing one’s internal state and observational skills. I’m noticing that as I’m listening to you describe these two camps that I definitely have my own personal bias towards the internal practice side. But at the same time, I know very well that each of these forms serves a very valid purpose in its proper context. So I’m curious if you could speak to that a little bit.

What might make a person choose one end of the spectrum versus the other? It depends on, I guess, your personal life history and what you want for yourself. So if you’ve experienced a trauma of some kind, like you’ve been a victim of a violent attack, you don’t want to spend years and years learning something that could be potentially useful. You want to learn something quick and fast to protect yourself so you’re not victimized.

So a more external style will give you more in six months than years in an internal system. But ultimately, every system, whether if it’s external or internal, if you do it long enough, will get softer, more internal, and become more of a self-exploration as opposed to just speed, strength, and ability to hurt people. It’s a different way to get to the same point, I believe, which is ultimately about personal refinement and exploration as opposed to having power over other people. But for practical purposes, we don’t want to have, let’s say, military personnel study Tai Chi as opposed to learning how to grab and break joints.

What you need at the moment and what your ultimate goal is. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for putting that in context. I’m intrigued by what you said about all techniques, if you stay with them long enough, sort of go to the same end, they end up as more of a personal exploration.

And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how that happens as a result of partnering. So I’m interested in, you know, I know you don’t call them leader and follower, but there is, of course, a whole lot of partnering in martial arts, right? And you use different terms to define that. So I’m wondering how that relationship contributes to the personal exploration.

I guess there’s that saying, it takes two to tango, and it also takes two people to fight. I mean, you could have internal conflicts, but that’s different from an actual. So for training, you do need a partner, you can do all the forms and personal drills yourself. But the martial part of martial arts does require work with a partner and that work has to be cooperative.

Even if it’s studying conflict, there is cooperation and a give and a take, or not a take, but a give and a receive. Even in a combat sports situation, you are working with each other to help each other improve, rather than just one trying to dominate and completely destroy the other person. And then if you’re the least or the lesser experienced person, you’re still receiving things that are being done to you so you can learn from it, and then to apply it. And there’s almost a feeling of gratitude, even if somebody is twisting your arm, you’re not resentful towards it, because it’s ultimately to learn how that feels, so then you can do it properly to somebody else.

It’s a form of controlled aggression that’s ultimately done to make you more secure. And it’s that partnership that you have, whether it’s from a teacher, student, or partners who are working back and forth to apply techniques. If you let your ego get involved, it can become power dynamics. But ultimately, it’s about gaining confidence by allowing yourself to experience things and lose with quotation marks so you can ultimately learn how to win better.

I would love to hear you speak a little more about what it’s like to be in that receiving role, which I think I would call the following role. You said that receiving is very much about allowing things to be done to you or allowing yourself to have experiences that may be quite uncomfortable. And I can see that too in a professional context, not so much physically, of course, but internally, emotionally, and even on a civic level, where our everyday lives are so clearly impacted by someone else’s decisions, whether that someone is our boss or maybe our senator. So I wonder what kind of insights you may have around how to navigate challenging situations that we may or may not have chosen to be in, but that nonetheless, we are on the receiving end of?

Well, on the receiving end, first of all, you have to have trust. You have to trust that, you know, when you tap that they’re going to release. So, you know, they’ll maybe choke you or twist a joint, and it’s going to be uncomfortable. But you know that their ultimate goal is to help you improve and not to hurt you.

So there’s a level of trust that you have to have. But at the same time, know when to set up boundaries. So if they’re not releasing, then you need to do something instead of just passing out. I’m so glad that you connected trust with boundaries.

I read a lot about the need for trust and trust building in teams and even in whole organizations. But I don’t read so much about the need for boundaries, especially when it’s coming from the receiver side or the follower side. But you really can’t have one without the other. You can’t just trust someone blindly with no sense of where the limit is.

I mean, that seems really clear when we’re talking about joints snapping potentially or cutting off oxygen. But maybe it’s not so obvious when we’re talking about workload or overtime. So I really do think it is part of the follower role to set those boundaries in order to be able to trust our colleagues or leaders with our own safety and well-being. What are some of the ways you apply the principles of your training at your work?

Martial art forces you to accept humility as a condition of your being. So if you’re more humble and respectful towards somebody and not always convinced that you’re right, so just pausing and just assessing the situation, take a breath. And then, like in training, you don’t want to be just naked aggression. You want to just try to be as efficient as possible.

So when you’re talking with somebody, instead of yelling back, just asking a question or saying, can you say that again? And then that gives you the time you need to reassess your situation and make better decisions. That sounds like a really useful tip, right? It sounds simple, asking a question, but at the same time, it can make all the difference, I imagine, between a counterproductive argument and some new possibility.

This idea that one is always right, or one’s pride matters more than trying to get to the truth. It’s very common to just argue because in the argument, the person may even realize that they might not be right, but they don’t want to lose. And the thing about training is losing is just part of the condition. Even if you’re really good, somebody is always going to be better.

And you just have to accept that as a condition of training. So being humble, but that’s not being weak. It’s strength through dignity. So just being able to lose graciously.

But when I say lose, I don’t mean being destroyed, you just learn. So that’s saying in martial arts, sometimes you win, and sometimes you learn. And sometimes the best learning happens from losing or being corrected. So if somebody corrects you for having wrong information or doing something incorrectly, there should be a feeling of gratitude.

I kind of love this, Jonathan. I just have a kind of epiphany in my own mind here about the idea of losing and how much we resist it in our everyday life, like it’s the worst thing possible. But the way you’re describing losing is almost like reclaim this position of losing or being pinned or being the follower as a place of learning. This is actually a good thing for me to be there with whoever’s in front of me, asking a question or hearing information that might be new to me.

I don’t have as much knee-jerk defensiveness. Is this resonating with you? Am I kind of following your logic? You know, like you don’t have to meet force with force.

So when somebody’s being very aggressive, and they’re pushing in, you don’t have to push back, you can allow yourself to receive and blend with that energy and redirect it. So when somebody is coming down with a strike, instead of blocking it, you could just blend with it and then using their own aggression and momentum, fall to the ground. Or in jiu-jitsu, being on the bottom doesn’t mean that you’re going to lose. There are many things you can do from the bottom, which is to somebody looking from the outside, the more vulnerable, weaker position.

So what may appear as weakness, losing position, may actually be the better position if you know what’s happening and being able to use that energy efficiently. I think what you’re saying is really fascinating that what you think might be weaker or what we might be, I don’t know, culturally conditioned to think is weaker is not necessarily right. It’s about what you see from there, what you’re aware of, how you’re dancing with the energy, so to speak, that there are always more choices is what I’m getting from your conversation, right? And one, you know, top or bottom or lead to follow is not intrinsically better or worse.

It’s like, how are you embodying that each of those positions? Yes, you just have different options. Basically, if you have a large enough toolbox, you have tools for different situations. And there are things you can do from, quote, the top position.

And then there are different set of things you can do from the bottom position. So if I’m against somebody who is much bigger and stronger than raw aggression and strength won’t work, so I have to go softer. And in fact, I have to go even softer and do less. And if you are aggressive towards somebody, and you’re the bigger person, then you have to also regulate yourself in a training position so you don’t overpower them because you don’t want to cause damage through neglect or irresponsible behavior.

I wonder if we can go back to the work environment and make some analogies there. I’m curious if there are any examples that come to mind of where you’ve maybe been in a conversation with someone who’s aggressive, and like when you’ve chosen to take that breath or take that pause. In a previous work environment, I had a co worker who was just very obnoxious, you know, just always boasting and taking credit for other people’s work and just, you know, and during a meeting, things got kind of heated. And then, of course, you know, a little bit of pride kicks in, it’s inevitable.

And I was thinking, boy, and if it weren’t for, you know, the rules and jail time, I would love to smash this guy in the face or, you know, throw him out the window. But at the same time, I have to say no, besides being unprofessional, I don’t want to do that for my karma. So how do you deal with that? Well, the first thing I had to do was first regulate myself by taking a pause breathing.

And then ask a question like, why are you saying that and then throwing it back to him. So then he has to then justify his behavior. And of course, in front of others, there’s no way he could explain himself with admitting that he’s being a jerk. So then he just had to calm down and sit down and then just be quiet, while somebody else can then take the lead of redirect the conversation.

So that’s one way. So by having that arsenal, you also have the freedom to not use it, and then do a little less to get what you want. Very interesting. I am reminded of another teacher whose book I’ve been reading.

Her name is Kasia Urbaniak, and I’ll put her book Unbound in the show notes. But your use of the question there almost feels like a martial arts move to me where, you know, this energy, aggressive energy is coming towards you and you use the question to kind of send it back. It’s almost like you’re switching roles or something. Does it feel like that to you?

Yes. In fact, I would say that’s a very Aikido move. So when somebody is attacking, you don’t hit them back or block. In fact, you sort of slightly nudge and redirect it, and then they have a choice of continuing that movement or disengaging.

And if they continue, then it leads to their own deflection and have to decide whether they’re going to hit the ground or you know, get into a pin. Yeah, super interesting, Jonathan. I’m curious, when you’re at work, and you make those pauses or ask those questions, do you feel like you do it differently, whether you’re in a leading or a following role, or does the process feel the same to you? I guess the parts that are the same is you always want to, again, check yourself before you start projecting onto others.

And just try to be as respectful as possible, whether if it’s through an email or an actual meeting, just being able to say, like, you know, I want to be respectful to others, because that actually shows respect that I have for myself, because I’m not going to bring myself to a level where I’m not being the best version of myself at that moment. I know that you’ve said to me before, that everyone should have martial arts training, right, that it’s just, it’s important for society. Could you say a little bit more about what, what the effect of that is? Like, why is that?

Why does that make such a difference for us? Martial art training allows you to accept that pain and discomfort and fear and conflict is just part of everyday life. So by constantly exposing yourself to those things, it’s a form of stress inoculation. Basically, it works as a vaccine to strengthen your immune system to how to handle challenges.

You know, we can’t pad the world, there’s always going to be sharp edges, there will always be difficult people or even moments when you’re terrified. So when that happens, are you going to crumble? Or do you rely on what you know and have the confidence that you can get through it? There’s a quote, we don’t rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training.

It’s an ancient quote. And that happens because the more we train and condition ourselves, that gives us the tools we need to go through life with less fear. I think that’s hugely important. And I’m imagining a situation, you know, at work, or maybe even at home, where I encounter someone who’s who’s aggressive, you know, say it’s my boss who criticizes me or says something harsh.

And, you know, like, my first reaction is to tense up. So like, what do I, what do I do in that moment, if I have martial arts training? First is, if you have some form of training, you know how to center yourself, you know where your center is, where you are in space and time. So just being able to triangulate where you’re at, both physically and psychologically, then gives you a reference point of how to deal with what’s an external threat.

So whether if it’s a physical threat or a verbal aggressive move, you know where you are, and that’s where you begin your movement, you don’t extend yourself beyond your sphere, because then that’s how you lose your balance. And that’s, in training, you know that if you overextend, you get thrown. So if you’re able to maintain your own space, your own center, and work out of there, and everything that happens outside of you, you know that you can’t control it, but you could control something once it enters your sphere of influence. So if somebody’s being obnoxious, that’s nothing you can change.

But if they actually interact with you, and then give you an opening for you to say something back or to redirect it, and then you find the openings you need. That’s such a great reminder, and something that I think is so worth practicing. Because there are so many moments at work and also at home, for that matter, where we encounter verbal aggression. And I know for myself, for most of my life, it just never occurred to me that I could do anything about that when it happened to me, when I happened to be on the receiving end of something like that.

But now, I really wonder how much negativity might be softened by some of these practices you’re describing. Yes, sometimes you don’t have to meet aggression with aggression. Sometimes just taking a pulse and just smiling, or using your mirror neurons to sync your breath with theirs, and then slow yours down. And then, without even knowing it, they may have to slow their breath down.

I mean, there was the Muhammad Ali trick where he would raise his shoulders when somebody was attacking him in a ring, and then drop it. And then instinctively, the person would drop their shoulders and expose their jaw and he’ll hit them. So without having to hit them, you can sync your breath with them, mirror their body language, and then relax yours, and then slow your breathing. And then, without knowing why, they’ll do something similar.

And then you could ask a very thoughtful question, or to say, can you say that again, so I can understand it clearly. And then they may have the pause to say, hey, maybe I was being too obnoxious. Maybe rephrase that so it’s more professional. We could only hope, right?

That would be a great outcome. Hopefully. And, and if they’re not, then again, if you’re able to regulate yourself, and not take things so personally, just say that that’s that person’s problem, if it may reflect their own insecurity and the need for exerting power because of their own feelings of inadequacy. And if you have more confidence in yourself, then those things are easier to deflect.

That makes sense. Jonathan, I want to ask you one more thing. I want to ask you about leadership, because one thing I’ve noticed in these conversations is that the more we articulate and name the role of the follower and the effect of partnering or even just the effect of observing that there are always two people, like in an interaction or in a conflict, right, that alone seems to change our concept of what the leader does, what the leader responsibility is, or, you know, just how power is expressed from the position of leadership. You know, knowing that we have this cultural bias towards leadership that, you know, we think that’s where all the power is.

And we’ve already established, I think, pretty thoroughly here that, that from both sides, there’s always a way to express power and to have options. So I’m wondering if you could comment on leadership and, you know, what you think good, effective, powerful leadership is after so many years of experiencing both sides. Well, I guess I can start with that famous Spider-Man quote, with great power comes great responsibility. So having any kind of power is having the responsibility and the discipline to not use it when it’s not necessary, and to use just the right amount for a situation.

So even if somebody is throwing a punch at me, you know, redirecting it or doing a counterpunch is fine. And it’s even legally acceptable. But if I have the person on the ground and start stomping on their head, that is clearly the wrong use of power. And it is no longer self-defense.

There’s no way I can argue that in the court and avoid jail time. So being able to regulate your use of power is a very important lesson that you learn from training because, you know, if I’m training with somebody who’s 120 pounds and five foot three, I am not going to hit them the same way I’m going to hit somebody who’s six feet and 240 pounds. I guess having the confidence to know what’s enough and don’t use more than necessary. That’s something you learn, first of all, by having it done to you.

But also once you know what it feels like when they’re receiving and you’re much more sensitive to how you give. It sounds like leading in the way you’re describing it is a lot about being aware of the other person. And, you know, being able to determine what’s necessary physically, for example, because you’re so aware of who that other person is, what they’re doing. How does that translate into, say, a work environment or, you know, any other environment for you?

I guess it comes down to how to properly use what you have, and not more. Like in speech, if you could say it with five words, there’s no need to give a 10 minute lecture. So, you know, work environment, you know, sometimes even in a leadership position, can you ask the right questions? Instead of saying, hey, you do that, you say, what do you think would be the best way to take care of this problem?

And then giving ownership to the other person. So then one, they don’t feel talked down to. And also, now they have something, they’re invested in the solution. Maybe leadership may involve better delegation and giving up control to allow a process to happen.

That’s super interesting that you just said leadership can be about giving up control in order to support a process or, you know, a desired outcome. I think that’s definitely, it’s definitely not something that’s obvious, I think, in our cultural context. But it, you know, for that reason, it’s so much more powerful. And it reminds me, oddly, of my dance experience, where the best leaders that I know, like from my, you know, personal experience partnering with them is one, just as you say, they’re very minimalist, right?

They do only what’s necessary to convey the signal or, you know, to convey the direction, almost to the point of not being perceptible. Right? Like you, like, I have the sense, I know exactly where to go, but I don’t know how it’s being communicated. It’s so precise and subtle.

And in a way, that is a lot of control, right? It’s like self-control. But then there’s also this idea of letting go of control in order to serve the outcome. I think that’s also very much in my dance experience.

You know, when I, when I’m in the role of leader on the dance floor, I am very aware that I’m not controlling ultimately, like what my partner does, right? I can give that signal in as precise a way as, as I can. But then there’s a huge amount of release of the end of that, right? Like, so I signal left, and then whatever happens in the other person’s body is going to happen.

And I need to let that happen and then make my next decision based on that. Does that resonate with what you’re describing? Do you see that happening either, you know, on the mat or in the office? I think the more we try to control, we get tense.

And when we get tense, we lose our ability to receive and perceive. So the more we can sort of relax and allow for a little bit of chaos, and just accept that chaos is a condition of all situations. And then you’re able to be more spontaneous and improvise as things happen. I mean, basically dexterity is the ability to make adjustments as necessary at that moment.

So to somebody on the outside, it appears intentional. Jonathan, this is so fascinating for me, you know, drawing, I really appreciate how you draw all the parallels between your, your martial arts training, dancing, working, it, it’s so helpful for me. And I imagine it’s helpful for listeners as well. What have I not asked you that you’d like to share any final thoughts?

Well, yeah, whether somebody wants to go become a professional fighter or martial arts practitioner, I think it’s good to at least expose yourself to just some basic self defense or survival, you don’t have to win a fight, you just want to have some skills to survive, which means just knowing enough to position yourself in a place to minimize injuries. And also, again, inoculate yourself to your fears and stress so you can regulate yourself better. So whether if it’s an external style or internal style, just exposing yourself to things that are uncomfortable, because it’s always nice to seek security and comfort, but that’s not always an option. So if we say, life is what it is, and then instead of making the world softer, maybe I can make myself a little bit stronger, and then be able to deal with it.

I so appreciate that, Jonathan. And I can see it on so many levels, just the willingness to accept discomfort, whether it’s physical discomfort, emotional discomfort. Paradoxically, it’s sort of like the key. There’s so much in the world that disturbs me, but I’ll never be able to fix the whole world so that I can be comfortable 100%.

So the alternative is accept what I see that I don’t like. And in that acceptance, that gives me somehow more room to move. Again, it’s maybe a difficult truth for us because our human bodies want comfort, but it’s really powerful. Thanks so much, Jonathan.

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